DINOSAUR DISCUSSION 11
A DEEPER DIVE
or
The Moon over three
Where did the dinosaurs come from?
Were they part of the creation?
Were they bred by the antediluvians?
Audience: Young Earth Christians
DEEP TIME VERSION
Uniformitarianism: the assumption that the same natural laws and processes that operate in our present-day scientific observations have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe
So we continue on our dirt investigation from Discussion 10.
To form the layers up from the Cretaceous we found would require approximately 3.879×10^8 km^3 of dirt or eroded material from the top layers.
Of course it was determined if the Cretaceous layers were eroded to form the Paleogene layers about then we wouldn’t have any Cretaceous layers left. And this argument could be applied all the way up and down the geologic column.
Now in discussion 10 we went as far or as deep as the top of the Precambrian because that is where the well data went to. As given from the source.
In this discussion we want to go a lot lower. Looking at the geologic time scale on wikipedia the end of the Archean looks like a good choice. But there may be some debate on that. Going to the beginning of the Archean instead. We will focus on the top one and perhaps investigate the other last.
So how do we get an estimate for the depth to the beginning of the Archean? As with the well data it is only one basin around the world. But you have to have an estimate from somewhere and if we use the well data that should give as good a guess as any.
And sure, the depths around the world most likely do vary. But as stated we need an estimate and this approach should work fine.
So how do we do this? The top of the Archean is way below the well data. But we should be able to use the well data to construct a regression line which can be used to estimate the depth at the top of the Archean layers.
Why the Archean? The Proterozoic eon follows above the Archean. And the wikipedia page on this states that
with the end of the Proterozoic having “Good fossils of primitive animals.”
but looks like we may be going to the beginning of the Archean eon where wikipedia states:
Archean / Eoarchean
First uncontroversial living organisms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale
The Eoarchean is the first era of the Archean Eon of the geologic record. It spans 431 million years, from the end of the Hadean Eon 4031 Mya to the start of the Paleoarchean Era 3600 Mya. Some estimates place the beginnings of life on Earth in this era, while others place it earlier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoarchean
The only problem with this of course is the suggested beginning age: 4031 Ma.
Trust me, I don’t have a problem with this [not that I believe the rock readings] BUT this is an awful lot deeper than I was planning to go.
I thought the top of the Archean would be safer at approx 2500 Ma. That was going to be a lot of fun. But 4031 Ma? This is going to be fun way off the charts.
Actually an interesting comment since the depth value we are going to obtain is literally off the chart. And some are going to say, yeah we’re not going to accept your estimate.
Don’t be too sure on that. This is where the evolutionists are literally stuck between a rock and a hard place.
You either accept what these people have written or you do not.
Uniformitarianism, also known as the Doctrine of Uniformity or the Uniformitarian Principle, is the assumption that the same natural laws and processes that operate in our present-day scientific observations have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe.
https://web.archive.org/web/20250712184440/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism
That’s a pretty big rock for them to get around. They use this principle as a foundation for a lot of geological workings. However, they have made a slight adjustment in this foundational belief:
The current consensus is that Earth's history is a slow, gradual process punctuated by occasional natural catastrophic events that have affected Earth and its inhabitants. In practice it is reduced from Lyell's conflation, or blending, to simply the two philosophical assumptions. This is also known as the principle of geological actualism, which states that all past geological action was like all present geological action.
https://web.archive.org/web/20250712184440/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism#20th_century
Pretty much, “the same natural laws and processes that operate in our present-day scientific observations have always operated in the universe in the past” but there have been “occasional natural catastrophic events” such as the supposed meteor impact at 66 Ma causing the K-Pg Extinction Event which supposedly caused the extinction of all non-avian dinosaurs [along with about 75% of all species on Earth].[1] And the rocks immediately went back to their supposed sedimentary build up after the event as if nothing had happened.
So apart from some catastrophes we can use an estimate from the data and assume that it is not too far from the mark. And that’s the approach I plan to take here.
OK a question needing to be asked. If the Precambrian pretty much did it, then why bother going any deeper? And why all the way down to the Archean?
As mentioned above, for the Eoarchean, the first era of the Archean, wikipedia states: “First uncontroversial living organisms”
And Christians [probably a majority?] believe that all the buried record of living organisms [dinosaurs to bacteria] were deposited at the time of Noah’s Flood. And since then all this stuff has supposedly converted to fossils.
So if we want make a really good case here we need to go to the supposed beginning of life which brings us to the Archean eon. Whether we need to go into the Hadean is another curious question. But to simplify things we will stick to the Archean.
So we need an approximation for this depth. How do we do it?
We can use the well data to determine a regression line down to the Precambrian. Then we simply extrapolate the rest. Again, how reliable would this be?
On a bad day, I would probably say it may not be very accurate at all.
However, as mentioned above, the evolutionists are caught between a rock and a hard place here. Their main geologic supposition is “the principle of geological actualism, which states that all past geological action was like all present geological action.” And excepting for “occasional natural catastrophic events”, assumes “that the same natural laws and processes that operate in our present-day scientific observations have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe.”
In other words, the rates that rock layers have formed hasn’t changed, and if we have a regression line going back to the Precambrian, we CAN use it to estimate a depth value for the Archean.
And according to their own writings, the evolutionists SHOULD accept our conclusions!
OK let’s look at the well data in full:
The W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 will in Section 10 Township 148 N Range 101 W was drilled to 15,064 feet deep. This well was drilled just west of the outcrop of the Golden Valley formation and begins in the Tertiary Fort Union Formation. The various horizons described above were encountered at the following depths (Fm=formation; Grp=Group; Lm=Limestone):
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet
https://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/
And we can use this data as an estimate for the depths of these layers around the world. And sure, some places the layers may be deeper or not as much, but overall as an estimate these values should do fine.
And are these layers for the geologic column in other places around the world? The evolutionists have answered this query for us. Here’s the quote:
First, as I have noted before, the concept quite prevalent among some Christians that the geologic column does not exist is quite wrong. Morris and Parker (1987, p. 163) write:
Now, the geologic column is an idea, not an actual series of rock layers. Nowhere do we find the complete sequence.
They are wrong. You just saw the whole column piled up in one place where one oil well can drill through it. Not only that, the entire geologic column is found in 25 other basins around the world, piled up in proper order. These basins are:
The Ghadames Basin in Libya
The Beni Mellal Basin in Morrocco
The Tunisian Basin in Tunisia
The Oman Interior Basin in Oman
The Western Desert Basin in Egypt
The Adana Basin in Turkey
The Iskenderun Basin in Turkey
The Moesian Platform in Bulgaria
The Carpathian Basin in Poland
The Baltic Basin in the USSR
The Yeniseiy-Khatanga Basin in the USSR
The Farah Basin in Afghanistan
The Helmand Basin in Afghanistan
The Yazd-Kerman-Tabas Basin in Iran
The Manhai-Subei Basin in China
The Jiuxi Basin China
The Tung t'in - Yuan Shui Basin China
The Tarim Basin China
The Szechwan Basin China
The Yukon-Porcupine Province Alaska
The Williston Basin in North Dakota
The Tampico Embayment Mexico
The Bogata Basin Colombia
The Bonaparte Basin, Australia
The Beaufort Sea Basin/McKenzie River Delta
(Sources:
Robertson Group, 1989;
A.F. Trendall et al , editors, Geol. Surv. West. Australia Memoir 3, 1990, pp 382, 396;
N.E. Haimla et al, The Geology of North America, Vol. L, DNAG volumes, 1990, p. 517)
(Figure courtesy of Thomas Moore) [below]
https://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/
So the regression line we obtain should be a reasonable approximation for the depth of these layers all around the world. As I said, an estimate, and it should do fine for what we are doing here.
Before doing the regression line, we need to clean this data up a bit. There are different layers within each group, say for example, the Devonian and Ordovician, whereas the wikipedia information we can readily obtain is mainly for the beginning and end of these groups.
This is easy to resolve and we simply take the first mention of a group and construct a data point, or set of coordinates that can then be easily utilized to determine a suitable regression equation.
The data used was obtained from the W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 drilled well which encountered various layers down to the top of the Precambrian at approximately 14,945 feet.
A simplified version of the data just giving the tops of main layers is as follows:
Depth[ft] Age[Ma] Layer 100 2.58 Tertiary Ft. Union Fm 4910 66 Cretaceous 6690 143.1 Jurassic 7325 201.4 Triassic 7740 251.902 Permian 7990 298.9 Pennsylvanian 8440 323.4 Mississippian 11085 358.86 Devonian 12539 419.62 Silurian 13250 443.1 Ordovician 14445 486.85 Cambrian 14945 538.8 Precambrian [Proterozoic]
In hindsight I probably could have left the first point off the data as it is not clearly showing the top of a main layer. Nevertheless it is a valid data point with an actual depth and assumed age[2] so decided it should be left in. It is also one of the end points so should be included.
Inputting this data into a spreadsheet we obtain the following:
Before doing the calculation and investigating the amount of dirt we are going to require we need to get a better handle on a compaction percentage. I previously tried this with sand to sandstone, and though there may be other materials to try thought this should give an overall reasonable approximation for all the layers.
Some calculations
Density calculations
River sand 1500-1540 Kg / m3
https://dreamcivil.com/density-of-sand/#g_Density_of_River_Sand
Sandstone (hard) 2140 – 2650 Kg / m3
https://matmake.com/properties/density-of-rocks.html
OK this is an attempt at working out an approximate compaction percentage for sand to sandstone. I tried a rough attempt in Discussion 10 but it was really rough, used a cube root approach and suggested it might be about 80%.
Let’s see how this attempt goes. I’ve thought about this and believe that shrinking a cube probably is not the correct approach. The weight of other eroded material, soil, etc building up above the layer will put downward pressure on a slab of sand or similar material. In short it will not be a shrinking cube but more a flattened rectangle, or square.
So instead of a shrinking cube it will look more like the following:
So let’s start with a cube of sand with sides 1 m. After compaction [supposedly over millions of years] it will still have a square base, but the height will have been compressed. Let’s try to work an approximate adjusted height.
We’ll use 1540 kg/m3 for river sand [given above]. So if we start with a cube of dimensions 1 m, that gives a volume of 1 × 1 × 1 m3 or 1 cubic metre. In other words we are starting with 1540 kg.
If that’s all we have we can assume it doesn’t change. The geologists may not completely agree with this but for our example here we will take that view.
So we assume the mass for our slab stays the same. We start with 1540 kg of sand and end with 1540 kg of sandstone. But the shape of the slab has changed. The base is 1 m by 1 m but what height do we need to have 1540 kg?
So let’s do this as 1 × 1 × h or just h
It’s the height but in this formula it is also the volume since the base dimensions are 1 m each!
So the volume × density gives what we have, 1540 kg.
But here we now have volume × density is h × 2650
[The density of sandstone is 2650 kg/m3. Given above]
Giving a simple formula:
2650×h = 1540
And the desired height will be obtained as 1540/2650 or approx 0.58 m.
which gives the compaction as 58%.
OK now the investigation. We’ve been here before. We stood at the very top of the Cretaceous and looked at all the dinosaurs. And this was all there was ALL AROUND THE WORLD.
So where did all the layers above this come from? Not from eroded Cretaceous layers else we wouldn’t be finding any Cretaceous dinosaurs.
Well all those extra layers must have come from a lot of compacted dirt over supposedly millions of years. How much dirt?
We did that calculation in Discussion 10.
Now we are going to the beginning of the Archean at supposedly 4031 Ma!
Let’s go!
Using our regression formula
Depth = 25.075Ma + 1735.8
we obtain
Archean beginning Depth = 25.075 × 4031 + 1735.8 = 101,077.325 + 1735.8 = 102,813.125 feet
= approx 31,337.4405 m = approx 31.34 km.
Using our compaction percentage approximation of 58% we will require 31.34/0.58 or
approximately 54 km of dirt.
Then the approx volume of dirt required to form all the layers above the Archean will be
54 km depth and land mass surface area approx 150×10^6 km2
giving approx
54 × 150×10^6 = 8100 × 10^6 or 8.1 × 10^9 cubic km.
And compare with the Moon?
Moon percentage?
We obtain [8.1×10^9] / [2.1958 × 10^10] × 100% or approx 37% of the volume of the Moon.
Note: this is just over 1 third of the volume of the Moon!!
Approx 37% of the volume of the Moon of dirt to build the layers from the Hadean up!
Note: the Archean begins where the Hadean ends.
Conclusions?
And again the big question is just where did all this dirt come from? Not from lower eroded layers [which would then not exist!]
Some curious questions
If all this dirt has been added to form these layers, then what would we have before it was added?
An Earth volume less one third of the Moon? What’s that got to do?
Would the Earth be spinning faster since it has less volume? Would it be travelling faster or slower in its orbit around the Sun? Would it stay in the same orbit or leave it completely?
What effect would a smaller Earth have on the cycle of the Moon?
What cycle? If the Earth was effectively smaller would that make its gravity less, releasing the Moon from its orbit to wander our Solar System and eventually fall into the Sun?
And so on and so on. None of this is possible since we are all still here. And so is the Moon.
These extra rock layers from the Hadean up were not formed by the addition of a massive amount of dirt the approximate volume of one third of the Moon. Though simple mathematics suggests that is the amount that is required.
Simple conclusions as before. These rock layers are not the result of Deep Time. Deep Time does not solve this problem.
These rock layers were not laid down as the result of straight erosion and sedimentation etc over many millions of years.
They came into existence some other way.
When this world came into existence [or at some later time, like the Flood etc] the rock layers were formed. As a complete fabrication, or a refabrication of the existing underlying rock structure from the Creation. Or some strange mix of fabrication and sedimentation with a lot of stuff reworked.
See Discussion 8 for more info about this.
And since a lot of this is a straight fabrication, that includes any rock readings contained in the layers themselves.
Which means there is no longer any support for Deep Time according to the supposed rock readings.
Repercussions for the dinosaurs
It looks like even with Deep Time the dinosaurs still don’t make it.
Since these rock layers came about some other way, they must be a fabrication or some form of curious mixture. If so the dinosaurs in the Mesozoic are in question. All of them. Apparently they never existed as living breathing creatures at any time in the past. They just came into existence when these rock layers did. Fully constructed as fossils in the rock layers and not as fossil remains at all, but something else.
Something to think about!
References:
Earth surface area
510072000 km2
Land: 148940000 km2
Water: 361132000 km2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
So 1.4894 × 10^8 or approx 1.5 × 10^8 square km.
or 150 × 10^6 square km.
Moon volume
Volume: 2.1958×10^10 km3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon
1.
The Cretaceous–Paleogene (K–Pg) extinction event, also known as the Cretaceous–Tertiary (K–T) extinction, was a sudden mass extinction of three-quarters of the plant and animal species on Earth, approximately 66 million years ago. The event caused the extinction of all non-avian dinosaurs.
http://web.archive.org/web/20230328021230/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous–Paleogene_extinction_event
2.
We need information about the Tertiary period
The Tertiary is an obsolete geologic period spanning 66 million to 2.6 or 1.8 million years ago. The period began with the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs in the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event, at the start of the Cenozoic Era, and extended to the beginning of the Quaternary glaciation at the end of the Pliocene Epoch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_period
Quaternary 2.6 to 0 million years ago [Duration 2.58] First introduced by Jules Desnoyers in 1829 for sediments in France's Seine Basin that appeared to be younger than Tertiary rocks.
Neogene 23 to 2.6 million years ago [Duration 20.46] Derived from Greek νέος (néos) 'new' and γενεά (geneá) 'genesis' or 'birth'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale
This suggests 2.6Ma but we could also use 1.8Ma and compare results. Probably won’t make much difference as we are fitting a regression line to this data.
The page gives the end of the Pliocene at 2.58 so will use that.
Stephen Buckley
E-mail: snoaktrua [at] duck.com
Last revised: 16 Aug 2025.
Construction started: 4 Aug 2025.
Companion pages
Page design/construction Stephen Buckley 2025.
Snoaktrua